Which are the bikes that have this range of at least 80 kilometres?
How much do those lithium -ion batteries weigh? I would have to carry them up three floors each time a charge is needed?

I used to ride a moped on Toronto back in the mid to late seventies. I drove it year round with a snow mobile suit and a full face helmet etc. I'm imagining doing the same thing with an e-bike. I weigh 250 lbs now. How fast might I go with the governor off in a more powerful model?

For many years now I've gotten around by bicycle and ttc metropass. I'm hoping to change all of that?

Does anyone here have any advice you're willing to share with me about what I have in mind in an e-bike?

Hi John
I have picked up a 48V 10Ah pack of LiFePO4 lithium cells (so 480Wh) and am incorporating them into an approx. 60lb two-wheeler now. Rider weight plus gear approx. 180lbs so say all up weight 240lbs... Yer a bigger guy, so you'll need to compensate accordingly. I also expect to lean more on the battery than on pedal effort. If you assist the battery more, this will change things also. This size of pack weighs 12lbs.

In my experience riding around using only 24V 10Ah (so 240Wh) of sealed lead acid batteries, 240Wh would get me anywhere from 10 to 20kms on one charge. Range is affected by headwinds, hills, mix of rider pedal effort and battery use, temperature of batteries, age of batteries, average speeds, tire pressure, showing off, etc.

I am incorporating two little heaters in the pack to run off pack voltage, and sourcing some aerogel to insulate the battery box (the cells should not be discharged at cell temps below minus 20C, or charged at temps below zeroC.)

So these numbers might give you some idea? Because you are larger I would double the pack size to 24lbs to get perhaps 20kms per charge, if you pedal-assist. You want to see 80km on one charge? So you are tapping about close to 100lbs of LifePO4 lithium! Almost 4 kWhs of pack...

With one deal on the go right now the supplier is offering cells at $1.25 per Ah for 3.4V 180Ah (612Wh) cells.

To build a 4kWh pack at this (very good) price per Wh you would be spending about $1,600 just for the cells.

Then, with lithium ya really need to add electronics - a battery management system that monitors the pack at cell level... so throw in some hundreds more there...

Looks like if using LiFePO4 lithium as your "gas tank" the pack with BMS will weigh about 100lbs and cost you perhaps $2,500 with current technology and at todaze rates. to get you your 80km range if you don't pedal much.

With care these sorts of cells are rated to last well over 1000 cycles (one discharge plus one recharge) so even if you ride 365 days a year, three years at a minimum... realistically perhaps five years. So $500 a year versus annual metropass costs of... how much?

A lot will depend on your mix of battery and pedal-assist, and your design of vehicle. For example a fully faired recumbent velomobile would be far more energy efficient than a conventional pedal bike...

Watt else can I tell you?


Lock

The Velomobile would be the extreme proper end of the scale. As something we aspire to in our minds for most of us, it is an ideal I will have to forgo at present. Many years ago I was introduced to travel by rocket belt on the then television series of Lost In Space. I was sure, then, that that was the future. Such are the assumptions one makes when one is close to the hub of the spinning wheel of time.

It would almost seem beneficial to buy an older used model, chuck the lead acid battery and pack the bike with li-ion batteries that are heated. (I've not yet purchased one; the shape of a scooter is what I had in mind.)

I wonder about your heating device used in the interest of the batteries? Does its draw on current, afford appreciably fewer kilometers available in a charge? I suppose it pays for itself in the amount of charge made available by maintaining temperature. What a brilliant idea.

You said something like: " the pack with BMS will weigh about 100lbs " by which I'm gathering that the BMS is some sort of circuity based on power management. BMS...surely it stands for more that Bring More Sunshine.

Your information is so clear and it's this kind of a discussion I had in mind. Thank you so much for that.
What a neat thing it is to be in the street, and better now, over more vast distances.

Hi John

The Velomobile would be the extreme proper end of the scale. As something we aspire to in our minds for most of us, it is an ideal I will have to forgo at present. Many years ago I was introduced to travel by rocket belt on the then television series of Lost In Space. I was sure, then, that that was the future. Such are the assumptions one makes when one is close to the hub of the spinning wheel of time.

Fair`nough. But the tradeoff is a larger more expensive battery pack that takes longer to recharge (unless you buy a correspondingly larger (rated for higher Amps) charger.

It would almost seem beneficial to buy an older used model, chuck the lead acid battery and pack the bike with li-ion batteries that are heated. (I've not yet purchased one; the shape of a scooter is what I had in mind.)

When you say scooter, d'you mean no pedals, or that style of ebike that looks like a scooter? Any pedaling will give you better range, provides exercise and helps keep you warm in the winter... But my suspicion is that yes, there are about to be quite a few "scooter-style" ebikes coming onto the used market from riders that have become disillusioned with vehicles that have not lived up to their expectations... It is very common to see used EVs listed at deep discounts off original cost with abused dead batteries...

I wonder about your heating device used in the interest of the batteries? Does its draw on current, afford appreciably fewer kilometers available in a charge? I suppose it pays for itself in the amount of charge made available by maintaining temperature.

Think of it this way. The heaters I have in mind only consume about 14W each so 28W for two in series versus the draw of a 500W motor... say about a 6% higher load... or 6% less range. Or a 6% larger pack, and yes, from the performance curves I have for my cells there is a significant difference between cells cooled to near zero Celsius versus 20 Celsius...

But the key thing is insulation to keep the heat in! I have sourced some aerogel made for the construction industry. It'll work out to about $60 to wrap my pack with a 10mm thick product that has twice the R-value of Thinsulate... So if all goes well I won't even be using the heaters much of the time (I don't leave my vehicles parked outside all day, but if I did I could plug the heaters directly into the 120VAC that they are designed for...)

I believe most here are still riding sealed lead acid batteries... Here is a typical data sheet for this type of battery:
http://upgi.com/Theme...

Note under Characteristics the bit about "Temperature Dependency of Capacity"... For this battery and similar ya gain about 17% apparent capacity (greater range) just by warming the batt up from zero to 25 celsius. The only really efficient way to do this is with good insulation to minimize heat loss!

You said something like: " the pack with BMS will weigh about 100lbs " by which I'm gathering that the BMS is some sort of circuity based on power management. BMS...surely it stands for more that Bring More Sunshine.

:)
Yes BMS= "Battery Management System" and yes it is a little printed circuit card w/components and tiny sensing wires that connect to and monitor each cell in the pack... Little in the sense that it comprises only a very small part of overall pack weight. Generally lithium packs at retail always have the BMS included inside the case (or should have.) Not an insignificant part of the price of the pack.

Lock

Thank you, Lock for the clear information you've given me here in this message board.

I'm curious about what people's experience might be with regards to actually getting around with a payload. I'm imagining that I could use my mountain back-pack for filling with groceries and library books and somehow saddle my acoustic guitar behind that on the seat too. It would seem that by the design of some of these "scooter-like e-bikes" that I've seen are capable of carrying an extra person. It would follow that one could devise some sort of carrier using this space behind. I know if might prove to be a bit of a balancing act, but I come from having used the bicycle for many things including being a bike courier and doing alley-cat scrambles etc. What are people's experiences with carrying stuff around?

And too: I'm concerned about security. I've seen e-bikes left in all sorts of places at all times of the day and night. They seem like such an easy "grab" for would-be thieves and vandals. Are there some rules-of-thumb that might not be obvious to me? I know that some of the newer models have anti-theft security beepers and come equipped with mild deterrents such as locked steering and locked compartments etc. Have these features been commonly included in general design, or have they just begun doing this in the past year or so? If I buy a used three year old bike, are there some of these features not necessarily included?

Does anybody know if you can take e-bikes on the Toronto Centre Island Ferry?

The world of e-bike seems full of many new possibilities.

Thank you, Lock for the clear information you've given me here in this message board.

Yer Welcome

I'm curious about what people's experience might be with regards to actually getting around with a payload.

Bin der Dun dat



For the ranges you desire, and if cargo is a frequent issue, then what ya might want is a trailer where much of the batteries are mounted on the trailer instead of the bike (with a plug-in cable to join them electrically,) and trailer built strong enough for cargo as well. Might need to be adding electric brakes on the trailer...

Lock

Does anybody know if you can take e-bikes on the Toronto Centre Island Ferry?

Ahhh... fond memories:

Email to staff from Toronto Islands Park Supervisor, 2004:

From: Warren Hoselton
To: Collins, Bob; Jaffer, Rafik; Sims, Gary
Date: 8/26/2004 3:05 PM
Subject: scooters, etc.
CC: Dann, James; Island Staff

Hi Guys,
We happened upon these two scooters yesterday.

They said than they brought them through the Ferry Docks and onto the
Ferry - no problems. I am not sure that I believed them - I think
they might have been trying to smooth things by saying that they were
fine with the ferry staff (they could have been boaters from the
Hanlan's wall as well - who know's!

These guys can go 50 km/h ! Although they are electric and
environmentally friendly they can pose a real hazard.

I realize there are different types of scooters / E Bikes etc but my
bottom line has been if it has a throttled motor then it is not
allowed.

Perhaps we could post a picture of these scooters just as a reminder
to be diligent in keeping them off the Island.

Thx
W

******** END of email from Warren Hoselton (Supervisor of the
Toronto Islands Park for Parks & Recreation Toronto.)***********

The email/memo as posted at the Ferry Docks includes a photo of two
classic "Boreem" or "Dolphin"-style escoots that the Chinese have
been making for years in Yongkang, complete with seats and cargo
carriers.

The photo appears to have been taken on the Island, with a City
minivan stopped alonside the two scoots standing on their kickstands
alongside the road.

Unless those scooters had been heavily modified, there is no way they
could approach speeds of 50 km/p!!! That aside, many folks on
bicycles can reach speeds that exceed the posted speed limits around
parts of the Island.

I am of course affected by this "edict" personally, as I live on the
Islands. Without my scooter I have lost my vehicle that I use to
commute to work and do grocery shopping with, etc... my "daily
driver".

But in a larger view I can see this same restriction (perspective?)
being imposed across the Toronto Parks system.

My thoughts presently are to reply in the form of a newspaper article
about the situation and my experience with little electric two-
wheelers in Toronto. Environmental aspects, energy costs, etc, etc.

So this is a call for any feedback from anyone here that may wish to
contribute thoughts and ideas to incorporate into a newspaper
article. I have of course lots of material to draw on (Christians
good efforts for example,) but I would like to come up with a couple
of versions (shorter and longer) that might have a shot at being
published in the Globe or Star or Now/Eye et al.

Rather than anyone post to this yahoo group, could any replies please
be sent to me personally and I will
incorporate whatever I can in a draft I will publish here soon for
comments?


Thanks

...so on March 8, 2005 when Brenda Librecz, General Manager, Parks and Recreation, Culture and Tourism Toronto, wrote to Councillor Mihevc:

"...these vehicles are restricted to roadways or parking areas in city parks, or other areas as authorized by permit. We haven't stopped their use; just kept them off pedestrian paths and walkways."

Was Librecz misleading City Council? Or were Parks staff misleading senior bureaucrats?

Lock

Does anybody know if you can take e-bikes on the Toronto Centre Island Ferry?

...on a happier note:

http://www.ebikerider...

Lock

Which are the bikes that have this range of at least 80 kilometres?
How much do those lithium -ion batteries weigh? I would have to carry them up three floors each time a charge is needed?

Back to the OP

I thought this recent post was interesting... It's from the guy that assembled my BMS. He's in Texas so doesn't have our cold winters, but... The subject of the thread is "Why isn't everyone interested in EV?", but note the specs he gives for his electric scooter and the sort of performance he gets:

"...An EV wouldn't have been a good match for me when i was on the road 35,000 miles per year in a four state range. But now that I'm working from home, my electric scooter gives me 95% of what I need. I've driven my car so little in the past year that I've had to add a 12V battery charger and fuel stabilizer to keep it reliable.

Chinese 'state of the art' does a much better job than I expected. 5000W hub motor, 13 inch wheels, 21S Thunder Sky 60Ah cells and a 100A controller gives a bike that can max out at 62mph, give a bit more than 42 miles range if kept at full-throttle, and out to about 60 miles range if kept to 30-35mph. The 100A controller only demands 1.6C from the pack, so there's no need for high C rate cells - just add capacity for more range."


So John... Andy's "scooter" has more gas-scooter-like characteristics. Much more powerful motor, much higher top speed, zero pedaling... and a range of up to 100kms if he moderates speeds to below 55kmh...

You can trade off numbers quoted for high speeds and long distances for performance as "torque" for load-carrying capability and acceleration and hill climbing at slower speeds and shorter distances and a larger rider and colder temps...

And you will note Andy's energy storage is "21S Thundersky 60Ah" where he only draws "1.6C" from this pack...

The reference to "21S" means 21 60Ah cells connected in series.

Some details on these Thundersky cells here (I don't know this supplier, just googled their page FYI!):
http://www.electricmo...


...so these Thunder Sky cells are LiFePO4 chemistry, and rated at a nominal 3.2V. Twenty one of these cells connected together in series gives 21x3.2V= 67V.

67Vx60Ah= 4,020Whs of energy storage. BUT this assumed you are always using 100% of their capacity. Not good... and Andy would never treat his cells this way! Lets say he gets his maximum range out of 90% of rated capacity so only 3,618Whs really... but ya still have to buy/carry the full 4,020Whs of course!

And one of these 60Ah Thunder Sky cells weights 2.5Kg... so for 21 you are looking at a pack weight of about 116kg.

At the price shown on that page, $2,520US plus shipping and maybe GST/HST and a little duty.

Plus electronics. A BMS and some skinny 24ga wiring.

Here is the data sheet that Thunder Sky provides for their cells (their LiFePO4 cells are labeled "LFP"... they make other lithium chemistries also):
http://www.thunder-sk...

You'll note that Thunder Sky rates their LFP cells good for a steady "3C" discharge with short bursts at up to "10C"... meaning at 3C the cells are being discharged at three times their nominal rate. In this example with their 60Ah cells you can actually discharge them at three times this nominal rate (without affected their claimed useful life) at 180Amps! BUT only for one third of one hour in this example.

So this nominal 4,020Whs pack is actually capable of putting out TEN times this rated capacity for short bursts of acceleration or hill climbing... 40,200Watts... OMG that is almost 54HP!!!


...but lets not go there (HAHA!)

At THREE times the nominal pack Wh rating, that is still SIXTEEN HP!

...but lets not go there either (hehe)

So Andy's point about his only discharging his cells at "1.6C" means he is discharging them at well below the 3C rating that the manufacturer stipulates as normal continuous discharge rate...

(Note too in the manufacturers data sheet the discharge rates they quote for MINUS 35 degrees Celsius!)

So Andy has made a significant investment in his battery pack, but he intends that this pack last a very long time.

Again from the manufacturers data sheet, they rate these cells as lasting for over 2000 cycles if they are only discharged to 80% Depth of Discharge (so 20% of charge remaining...) To over 3000 cycles if these cells are only discharged to 70% DOD...

Not too shabby. Andy is perhaps shooting for that 70% DOD mark... over 3000 cycles... If he rode his scooter seven days a week all year around and discharged his battery to 70% DOD every time and actually gets to that 3000 mark he will not need to buy a new pack until about the year 2018...

Cheers
l0Okc

ps... None of this is helping you get up three floors is it...