I'd be very much interested in a Meetup at some point to see what you've got in the way of your bicycle being converted. I would bring my mountain bike asking for an opinion about that. What's between Pape and Oconnor and the Island that might be convenient?

Well John, I moved off Island a few years back... I'm at St.Geo & Bloor these daze... Means I get to feel the rumble of electric trains under my feet EVery few minutes!

I'm honestly not sure about my opinions on conversions! Ya see, my experience with EVs has been driving these around:


!!!!

BUT, I do know a fabulous bunch of folks that DO know all about conversions, and they hang out at the Endless Sphere... here:
http://endless-sphere...

The best way to introduce yourself on the Sphere is to spend some hours first just reading some of the relevant topics... Some of the discussions are *extremely* technical and many are *extremely* practical. There's just a huge amount of knowledge and experience aboard the Sphere and many who are very generous with their time in helping out folks that are new to ebikes... Then post a hullo message... A pic or two of the bike with some description is good. Ya need to describe your Mission Statement... Weight of vehicle plus rider and gear. Max range. Top speed. Average speed. Terrain. Ambient temps. Recharge opportunities (eg at work?) Try a search on the Sphere for the phrase "Mission Statement"...

The scoots I've been kicking around town rely on a little 450W motor w/sprockets and chain to drive the rear wheel... My "next gen" scoot has a 16" front wheel w/hub motor built in so no more chain or sprockets to deal with. No pedals or gears either. Like the scoots I've been using, the new one has the batteries in the deck under my feet. So there are just a lot of things to consider in how you mount a motor and batteries on a pedal bike that I don't have to worry about. I mean I do read what others are discussing about these things but I don't let a lot of it soak in!

But if ya want to hop on the electric train and pop up at St.George I'll be happy to bore you to tears with hours and hours of blabbing on about ebikes (GRIN) Over coffees is fine. Beers better
Just need a heads up in advance!
Lock

Hi Lock, I'm a friend of John's...mentioned this site to him...and have just read some of this really interesting discussion between you and him. I would really like to ask you about this Aerogel insulation that you are looking at to keep your batteries warm. I ride a e-scooter, Velotec, around 175 lbs. The battery pack is 62 lbs...heavy. I keep my scooter in a unheated garage and am looking around for options to prolong the range and life of the battery over the cold months (I don't bring it inside to charge). I wonder if wrapping some of this insulation AROUND the deck that holds my battery would make a difference? Taking the battery out injures my back every time.
Also, John...after chatting on the phone earlier and now reading some of this discussion between you two, I want to mention something. A friend of mine purchased an e-scooter that is not a bike or a full scooter-style like mine...it's kind of hybrid...I'll look for a link to a pic for you. He weighs around 180 and found that as soon as the wind hit him from the side, his bike/scooter would get blown off course a bit. He stopped riding in the wind (lot's of days!) I guess my question is, if you want to ride with the governor off to get the higher speed, make sure you factor this issue of bike weight, speed, wind, etc in. I've been blown to the side a bit as I shot across the bloor danforth viaduct in high wind. Scary. I've now learned to anticipate when I need to lean into the wind. The weight of my scooter helps...but my weight (115-120) prob. makes me easier to push around. Just want you to find a bike/scooter that feels safe to you. I think it's great that you decided to research alot first.
take care both of you.

Angela

Hi John

The Velomobile would be the extreme proper end of the scale. As something we aspire to in our minds for most of us, it is an ideal I will have to forgo at present. Many years ago I was introduced to travel by rocket belt on the then television series of Lost In Space. I was sure, then, that that was the future. Such are the assumptions one makes when one is close to the hub of the spinning wheel of time.

Fair`nough. But the tradeoff is a larger more expensive battery pack that takes longer to recharge (unless you buy a correspondingly larger (rated for higher Amps) charger.

It would almost seem beneficial to buy an older used model, chuck the lead acid battery and pack the bike with li-ion batteries that are heated. (I've not yet purchased one; the shape of a scooter is what I had in mind.)

When you say scooter, d'you mean no pedals, or that style of ebike that looks like a scooter? Any pedaling will give you better range, provides exercise and helps keep you warm in the winter... But my suspicion is that yes, there are about to be quite a few "scooter-style" ebikes coming onto the used market from riders that have become disillusioned with vehicles that have not lived up to their expectations... It is very common to see used EVs listed at deep discounts off original cost with abused dead batteries...

I wonder about your heating device used in the interest of the batteries? Does its draw on current, afford appreciably fewer kilometers available in a charge? I suppose it pays for itself in the amount of charge made available by maintaining temperature.

Think of it this way. The heaters I have in mind only consume about 14W each so 28W for two in series versus the draw of a 500W motor... say about a 6% higher load... or 6% less range. Or a 6% larger pack, and yes, from the performance curves I have for my cells there is a significant difference between cells cooled to near zero Celsius versus 20 Celsius...

But the key thing is insulation to keep the heat in! I have sourced some aerogel made for the construction industry. It'll work out to about $60 to wrap my pack with a 10mm thick product that has twice the R-value of Thinsulate... So if all goes well I won't even be using the heaters much of the time (I don't leave my vehicles parked outside all day, but if I did I could plug the heaters directly into the 120VAC that they are designed for...)

I believe most here are still riding sealed lead acid batteries... Here is a typical data sheet for this type of battery:
http://upgi.com/Theme...

Note under Characteristics the bit about "Temperature Dependency of Capacity"... For this battery and similar ya gain about 17% apparent capacity (greater range) just by warming the batt up from zero to 25 celsius. The only really efficient way to do this is with good insulation to minimize heat loss!

You said something like: " the pack with BMS will weigh about 100lbs " by which I'm gathering that the BMS is some sort of circuity based on power management. BMS...surely it stands for more that Bring More Sunshine.

:)
Yes BMS= "Battery Management System" and yes it is a little printed circuit card w/components and tiny sensing wires that connect to and monitor each cell in the pack... Little in the sense that it comprises only a very small part of overall pack weight. Generally lithium packs at retail always have the BMS included inside the case (or should have.) Not an insignificant part of the price of the pack.

Lock

Hi Angela

Hi Lock, I'm a friend of John's...mentioned this site to him...and have just read some of this really interesting discussion between you and him. I would really like to ask you about this Aerogel insulation that you are looking at to keep your batteries warm. I ride a e-scooter, Velotec, around 175 lbs. The battery pack is 62 lbs...heavy. I keep my scooter in a unheated garage and am looking around for options to prolong the range and life of the battery over the cold months (I don't bring it inside to charge). I wonder if wrapping some of this insulation AROUND the deck that holds my battery would make a difference? Taking the battery out injures my back every time.

Lead-acid batteries aren't really harmed by freezing temperatures! If the batteries are cold this slows down the chemical reaction so it *seems* like they have lost charge, but not really! When fully charged the electrolyte is acid and has a freezing temperature much, much lower than water. As the battery is discharged the acid is converted to water... and *then* you have a problem... Well, if for example they are only 75% charged they might freeze at about minus 37 Celsius! We don't see too many nights that cold in Toronto!

So the batteries just need to be topped up over the winter months to keep them fully charged, maybe switch on the charger once a month or so... and you will see it doesn't stay on that long before it reports the batts fully charged again. All this is about if your batts and ebike sit unused over the coldest winter months...

But if you wish to ride in the cold, then you really need warm lead!

Lead acid batteries are not 100% energy efficient... Actually, perhaps only 70% to 80% efficient depending on design and age etc. So when they are being charged or discharged they do warm up a bit. The idea of insulating the pack only works if there is heat in the batteries to conserve! Lead of course is very dense. Depending on the size of the battery it can take many, many hours for the batteries to reach equilibium with ambient temperatures.

So insulation might at least shield the batts from the lowest temperatures on the coldest of early mornings... But the heat generated by charging and discharging isn't *that* much, and of course the batts are not being constantly discharged and charged...

So to ride lead in the winters ya really need to add external warmth to the batts, and insulate the pack to minimize the amount of energy needed to keep the pack warm... So you either have to bring the batts indoors, or add a heater...

My "problem" is I really don't know how the scooter-style ebikes are built! Whether there even is any space around the batteries where insulation can be added? The battery heaters I have found are designed to fit under car starter batteries, so they are flat and thin but not bendy and they are sized for the shape of the bottom of a normal-sized car starter battery. Not a problem for me `cause I'm putting my cells in a custom made battery case and can allow for the thickness of the insulation and these heaters...

For a heater, there is another option... Some folks that race cars inject nitrous oxide into their engines, and there are electric nitrous bottle warmers that run off either 12V DC or 120V AC:
http://www.dynotuneni...

This one is rated as 130W (but I'm not sure if it is the 12V DC or 120V AC flavour):


In the same way that you plug in your battery pack to charge, ya could plug in a second cord to run a heater like this. They are flexible and may mold into available space inside the battery compartment?

You would NOT want to be running one of these heaters 24/7 to warm your battery pack as heat could build up TOO much, so you would need an outdoor rated timer as is sold for outdoor Christmas decorations, then you could set things so the heater only runs for an hour or two before you wish to ride anywhere. You would have to experiment carefully with a thermometer to monitor the temp of the batteries to establish how many degrees they warm up over time...

So the insulation would just work in tandem with the heater... to help reduce heat loss once the heater is turned off...

You can add any sort of insulation of course. I went hunting for the absolutely highest R-value there is... I was aware of aerogel, but usually in a form like this:


...which folks call "frozen smoke"! It is 99.9% air! Amazing! But it is brittle...

So the industrial stuff I have found is a compromise, and pretty bullet-proof... The only higher R-value out there is made as "vacuum panels" and these things seemed too tricky to work with. The industrial aerogel stuff is also "springy" so it should help isolate my pack (electrical connections) from road vibration, and it has this huge fire rating as well. I am not concerned about any fire safety hazard regarding the LiFePO4 cells themselves, but the connecting wires and electronics, where if the cells ever did short somehow things like wires etc can get very, very hot very, very fast...

Anywhooo... Even without insulation, if your batteries were wrapped with a nitrous bottle warmer or two, heating the batts up to 20C or 30C before heading out on the road, the batts would take hours to cool down by themselves because they are so dense... For me the insulation is icing on the cake. Helping to keep the vehicle as energy efficient as possible. I don't plan to plug the heaters into 120V AC but instead run them directly off the 48V DC pack voltage, so any watts consumed this way will shorten my range per charge...

A friend of mine purchased an e-scooter that is not a bike or a full scooter-style like mine...it's kind of hybrid...I'll look for a link to a pic for you. He weighs around 180 and found that as soon as the wind hit him from the side, his bike/scooter would get blown off course a bit. He stopped riding in the wind (lot's of days!) I guess my question is, if you want to ride with the governor off to get the higher speed, make sure you factor this issue of bike weight, speed, wind, etc in. I've been blown to the side a bit as I shot across the bloor danforth viaduct in high wind. Scary. I've now learned to anticipate when I need to lean into the wind. The weight of my scooter helps...but my weight (115-120) prob. makes me easier to push around. Just want you to find a bike/scooter that feels safe to you.

Hmmmm! Interesting... I can only guess that this is a fact of life for any scooter-sized or motorcycle-sized vehicle. Where the vehicle presents a fairly solid object to any cross-winds, at least more so than an open-frame pedal bicycle... Don't know what to say! Except that like for a lot of conditions - low light, snow/ice/gravel, etc - EVerybuddy has to adjust their driving style. Often this just means slowing down... driving more conservatively...

I do know that the pedal-bike racing folks that use "solid" wheels (where the space between the hub and rim is covered for aerodynamic advantage) note that cross winds can be a problem for these as well...

It's amazing how much power there is in the wind!

Lock

Lock...thanks so much for all this info...I'm just taking it all in.

John,
If you decide on a scooter model - like mine - the space under the seat and bubble compartment behind is good for groceries. My napsac - packed - sits on the "floor" between my feet...there's a hook below my "dashboard" that I use all the time. As for my guitar or bass...easy. I have a soft case with two straps...wear it as a napsac and the bottom of my instrument sits on the seat RIGHT behind me. Never had a problem with it.

ange


I'm curious about what people's experience might be with regards to actually getting around with a payload. I'm imagining that I could use my mountain back-pack for filling with groceries and library books and somehow saddle my acoustic guitar behind that on the seat too. It would seem that by the design of some of these "scooter-like e-bikes" that I've seen are capable of carrying an extra person. It would follow that one could devise some sort of carrier using this space behind. I know if might prove to be a bit of a balancing act, but I come from having used the bicycle for many things including being a bike courier and doing alley-cat scrambles etc. What are people's experiences with carrying stuff around?

I'm curious about what people's experience might be with regards to actually getting around with a payload.

I have sat on 50lbs of dog food getting home... My biggest "payload" has been a woman, like this:


...so not "practical" for "scooter-style" ebikes I guess...
For your "context" I'll recommend a trailer. Where all weight is kept down low. It's a basic tenet of vehicle design.
tks
l0Ck